Subject: RE: Stop Printing Decklists Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 02:23:49 -0600 From: Shane Thompson To: fkusumot@ix.netcom.com In regards to Dorian's letter __________________________________________________________________ Now, this letter disturbs me. I think in exactly the opposite way, but I can relate. I have been playing magic since unlimited and revised shared the shelves, and legends wasn't out yet. I myself have put probably $5000.00 Canadian into this game putting together all the cards I bought, tournaments I have entered, and plane tickets I have needed. Never once have I thought that this was a bad investment. But I did take a hiadas for the last 6 or so months because magic was getting boring to play, and too expensive. The boring part came from the fact that the only serious magic I play is when I travel 3 hours to the closed tournament. In the town I come from magic is very anti-Dojo. I once mentioned the Dojo to the people I play with and I got shot down for looking at such a site. With that in mind, you can understand what kind of play group I play with. Everyone makes fun decks, we play multiplayer games, 90 cards is normal for a deck and a game should take 3 hours. This in my opinion is as far away from dojo like play as you will ever get. This I think is what you are looking for. You are looking to get back to your roots. Back to the days before Scrye and the DCI, back when juzams were crap that was put in bike spokes. Well, I come from that place, and let me tell you.....it's better with the Dojo. Now, the issues that you raised may seem valid to some, so let me show you the dark side......it's better over here...besides..... we get free fudge! you say: " I love to read about a new idea for a deck.. gets me thinking.. and thinking is good. But to just be able to copy a complete deck without thinking about it, without even needing to play test it.. this is not good. Magic should be a game to stimulate creative thought and problem solving skills. Being able to play a "dojo" deck and win a tournament with it, without any thought, playtesting, planning or whatever is a very bad thing for the game. " and I retort: " I also can say that I like seeing new ideas. I looked at the MoMa decks on the Dojo last night, and let me tell you, some people came up with some cool stuff. But I personally didn't like the way most of them did it, I prefer a more solid deck, one that doesn't fold if it doesn't get a kill by turn three. So I created my own. I can't speak for all the people out there, but most people think that they have better deck building skills than the people that post to the Dojo(hense the reason Frank gets hundreds of submissions from no-name blow-Joe's like me). Most people will see a deck on the Dojo and will change some aspect of it thinking they made it better, maybe they did, but thats not the point. Anyone who just copies a deck from da Dojo and goes out and plays it without playtesting is giving there money to the tournament organizer. The decks on the Dojo are not easy to play, yeh...even sligh has it's nuances which need to be mastered. Not any yoho can play 5CU, but with playtesting people will be able to see how that deck works, and will be able to increase there magic skills. The reason why tournaments are getting tough for some people is because others are playing more, and getting experience. The existance of the Dojo is helping the new players catch up to the old ones quicker than we old ones learnt stuff. Back in the day it took along time to understand mana ratios. Hell I played for a year and a half before I developed my own theories on deck building. Now a days, newbies are so far behind the major lot of people, the Dojo really helps them understand the chemistry behind winning decks. After a very short while, these newbies will soon start playing better and developing there own strategies about deck building. For the experiences players out there, which I call myself one of, the Dojo lets us compare our decks to the stuff thats winning out there. If the Dojo helped lil' Johnie tweak his 5cg deck that he built himself to the point where it's a killing machine, then good for Johnie, and good for the Dojo. In the world of Pro-tours and tournaments the Dojo is a very powerful tool in 'being all that you can be', but is in no way necessary. Even though they might be copying a deck off the dojo today, tomorrow that newbie is going to quickly understand how the deck works and how he can improve it. Complete copies of Dojo decks should be unheard of. Most people, if not all people, will edit the deck to there liking. This in turn does actually promote thinking. Actually more-so than playing in an area like I do. People dealing with hardcore players think a helluva alot more than us hicks do about deck building. Hell, out here I can win with a 150 card deck made out of green-commons I found on the floor and shuffled. That doesn't require skill, but tournament magic, even if you semi-copy Dojo style, definitely takes thought, skill, smarts, and a good breakfast :P" phew. still stuck in your frame of mind you say: "I have read many articles/comments from magic players about how the game is: (1) not any fun anymore (2) too competitive (3) been ruined by the protour (4) dying because there are too many new cards sets and who can afford to buy all this stuff anyway " Again, I have a comment on the situation. " 1) if it's not fun, stop playing...noones forcing you to, and noones going to change to keep you happy. 2) too competitive.....well....stop playing tournaments....play for fun...play multiplayer games....within a month you will be begging for the competition. 3)not ruined...but helped...if you don't want to try for the PT's then dont...but there is noway that offering a million dollars to the best players is in anyway ruining the game...if it is...go talk to a lotto winner and tell her that she should give the money back cause lotto's are ruining the lottery business.....sounds pretty stupid eh? same **** different pile. 4) you don't need to buy all the sets....heaven forbid trading for stuff you want...what a concept. " so you say..... " But the real problem is that the popularity of the Dojo is destroying the game that supports it. Players should be thinking for themselves, but if they know that they will have to be able to play against Dojo decks, then they have to be able to take the time to build these decks and playtest against them (or play them if their "homegrown" decks are not good enough). This has greatly increased the amount of time required to stay on top. Now when a player prepares for a tournament, he/she has to prepare to play against all the local decks and all the Dojo decks (contributed worldwide and with corresponding skill).. Its no wonder that this is a daunting task scaring many away from tournament play. Now, this is the part that frustrates me. Most of what you say I dealt with earlier, but the part that frustrates me is the part where you say ....and I quote "This has greatly increased the amount of time required to stay on top". To this I say....whoop de friggin doo. If you want to stay on top, you have to be the best. If the Dojo brings everyone to your level, heaven forbid above your level, then you shouldn't be the top dog cause you ain't workin hard enough for it. Magic is a competitive game in it's tournament scene. If you don't like the competition then go play at home, if you want to be on top, then don't gripe about the competition being to tough. It's the fact that magic is a competitive game that makes it the best. You don't see millions of people playing dragon dice.....it's just not stractegic...Magic is the god...will always be the god...period...thats all there is to it...the god. To the newbies that Darion talks about that get scared away from the tourney scene i say this " Don't get scared away from the tourney scene. When you start playing in tournaments, YOU WILL NOT BE THE BEST. Don't expect to be. Expect to lose alot, and I mean alot. But get into it, the only way to get better is to play with people better than you. If you can get into a tournament scene where there are players like Scott Johns..or Finkel...or hell anyone better than you...you should enjoy it. Take the beats, and then ask for comments later. You will be amazed at how many people will tell you things, cause you know what.....they feel the same as you...losing and all...and they like the ego boosting." As for your request to stop printing deck lists on the Dojo, I think that you might have changed your mind, and if you haven't I will make a request of my own. Stop reading the Dojo. What you can't see can't hurt you .....or can it...? oh...and if you are wondering how I voted on the poll....reread this article. Shane Thompson Aka. KiTShiKeR "This message came to you from the small part of my brain that isn't occupied by mana ratios and card listings"